From Bartender to CEO: Her Exact Steps to the Top

The Wild Career Pivot Story

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What if I told you that today's guest started the largest for-profit hospice in the entire state of Arizona in just five years, sold it to a private equity firm, and then retired and decided, well, you know what? I'm gonna start a matchmaking company with my cousin. So, do you want to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Sure. Well, thank you for having me. I'm so excited that you're taking this adventure to explore women and what they can do in the workforce, particularly some that have been saturated by men. So my name is Tiana Zhang. I am an Arizona native. I've lived here my entire life. Um, well traveled, some for work and lately for pleasure, since I did have some retirements in there. Um, but I absolutely love the healthcare industry. Um, I love doing things that are creative, innovative, kind of uh disrupting industries is kind of my jam. And so always happy to meet with uh new bright people. I am so excited for this generation and what they're gonna do. Um, so many opportunities coming your guys' way. So always happy to have a conversation, mentor in any way I can help.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Well, thank you. Um, what do you think kind of encouraged you to go into the healthcare industry, especially the for hospice business as a whole?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Ooh, it wasn't my intention because particularly then, who grows up thinking hospice is a job?

SPEAKER_01 1:21

It's not a first choice.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

It's not a first choice. And in my day, hospice was really particularly known for super end of life. We're talking days and cancer. But I was raised by my daddy, who was a doctor, and he was a brilliant, brilliant physician, Stanford trained. Um, so I'd grown up in the back of his office. And lastly, he practiced in a small town here in Arizona called Payson. And he was the town doc. And the doorbell would ring, and we didn't know if somebody was having a baby, cut their thumb off. Uh, but I got to see firsthand him caring for people. And a lot of people there did not have insurance and did not have funds. So we worked on barter a lot. It was the good old days. We would get eggs, we would get horseback riding lessons, even at the local cafes or the beauty salons, we would go in and everything was kind of barter. And he would treat everybody unless they were an addict or alcoholic refusing to seek treatment. He would take care of everybody from the kids, the dogs, the grandparents. So I grew up seeing that kind of care. Yeah. And then I went to college and kind of thought, oh yeah, I'll do pre-med because I've been in my dad's office. I've been, I assisted with my first childbirth when, you know, I was 11. Um and my dad said to me, Tiana, by the time you get to be a doctor, you won't get to do what you see me doing. You will be fighting with insurance companies and hiding behind a computer screen. And boy, was he right.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

They really popped out as soon as times changed.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

He he nailed it. And so I didn't intend to. Uh I didn't even know hospice was a thing until I kind of fell into it backwards.

School Choices And Real-World Credibility

SPEAKER_01 2:50

You went from Payson High School to Arizona State. What did you study? Um, what did it do for you? Did it encourage you to go into business or something else entirely? So, how did that push you into what career you chose today?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Something else entirely. So even though I came from a very smart family and well-educated family, I was kind of the outlier. I was the social girl. I loved the people, I loved the parties, I loved the scene. Um, I started, uh I worked for a chiropractor for a couple of years while I was going to ASU, and then I started bartending, um, actually here at Houston's on Scottsdale Road, like the original cool steakhouse place to be in the 90s. It was just the best. Um, and so I actually never even completed my degree. Oh no. Which is I'm not advocating for that. So I'm not saying that I am anti-advanced education. Did you end up going and finishing later? No way. You're just high school? Nope. Wow. And and I believe in advanced education, but particularly in today's environment and what your generation is doing, there are so many people coming out of college with debt and four-year degrees and can't get jobs. So if you can find something that you can that you love to do and monetize it, do that. Now, having said that, there have been times in my career where I do think not having a degree affected me or could have affected me. If I hadn't started my own business, yeah, right, like I would have been.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Then not having a degree would have been.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah. And even at times, even after having my own business and working with different companies, and I was great with my different groups that worked with me. They showed me a lot of respect, but I wouldn't have faulted them if they didn't. I mean, I was sitting around tables, you know, in skyscrapers in New York and Boston on the 40th floor with people going, you know, I got this degree from Harvard and this degree from Yale and this one from Columbia and whatever. And I'm like, I went to ASU for a bit, and I was my high school diploma for PACE and I. I would say it. You know, that's that's what I brought. So um, yeah, going from PACIN to ASU, uh that was an adjustment. It was an adjustment. But um I do, I do welcome education, but I'm not gonna say you should let it stop you if that's not your path.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Do you think a business degree or something like that could have helped you at all?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Oh, I answered that way too quick. No, and I'm gonna go with it because you're gonna find for me I'm extremely authentic. So when I was uh after I had started my hospice, my two investors, my two partners, the most wonderful partners in the world, one was a lawyer and an MBA, and the other one was a thoracic surgeon. How did you meet them at school, out of school, just connections? I met them through having worked in hospice um before, and my ex-partner had worked with the doctor. And so I was already working with him and his group to get referrals. And then when I wanted to start my own hospice, he he was one of the people I went to for advice, and he brought in his brother, who was the um MBA lawyer. And so I ended up partnering with them, which was super cool. Um, but I wanted to go back and sit, and I I said to Jerry all the time he was the best partner in the world, he was the lawyer MBA. And I'm like, Jerry, I should just go back and get my MBA. Like I can fast track this and whatever. And he was like, You could, and it's great. And he goes, but man, you're you're really not gonna like a lot of the things that you hear and there because it doesn't hold true to practice a lot of the times. Yeah. And so do I regret not getting it? No. But some people should.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

What do you think encouraged you from switching to working under someone in the hospice like environment to deciding to start your own business?

How Sales Led To Hospice Work

SPEAKER_01 6:31

How was that like transition?

SPEAKER_00 6:33

It was straight up Jerry Maguire. I knew I did you not under do you know that reference? Oh that kind of like I did. Let me think of something else. Um it was I knew when I fell into hospice backwards, and I literally did. So after not completing uh my degree and having bartended at Houston's, I took a sales job and I was out selling phone systems door to door. And I didn't know what I was doing, and it was crazy. And I cold called a hospice company and sold them a phone system.

unknown 7:02

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

They offered me a job. And the rest was. You thought you were just that good at sales. And you know, I looked at the credentials and I was like, I don't have the experience, I don't have the education you want. They said, we don't care, we'll train you.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Um wait, what type of job in hospice? Like, was it sales? Was it marketing?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Marketing. Marketing is what we call it, but it is sales. So after working in hospice for other people for a while and loving it, I knew day two that it's where I should be. Like I knew that my dad from heaven had guided me there. I knew that's what it was gonna be. And I just kind of looked around and I thought, there's a lot of smart people here and they're doing it. But if they can do it, so can I. And the biggest factor for me, because I was patient-facing, I would go out, I would meet with the patients, I would meet with their families, I would meet with the physicians or the case managers that would refer them to me, and I would tell them all these things that were gonna happen. For me, I had to know it was gonna happen. And the only way I could ensure that is if it was my company and I got to call the shots. Because I worked for very good companies. Yeah, but when you're working there, you hand off to the team and then some things can kind of get lost, right? Um, and I believe innately in hospice that most people really want to do a good job. I mean, they it's great people.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

I mean, it's important. That's like the end of their lives. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

That's really like scary for a lot of people. It's terrifying for a lot of people. And so when I knew that it's what I wanted to do for the foreseeable future, and that I wanted to do it better than anybody else, there was no choice but to start my own. Yeah. It just wasn't.

Launching Sage Hospice The Right Way

SPEAKER_01 8:35

How did it, how did you like build that business in the first place? Like what like started the journey?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

So after being in uh hospice for a while and working for two other really good companies, yeah, I just decided that it could be done a little bit differently and it could be done a little bit better. And even though they both did a great job, yeah, you know, it's easy from the outside in to look at faults. So I made sure I was very ethical. I made sure that I did not infringe on either of my previous employers. I took absolutely nothing or nobody. So this is very important legally wise, okay? Because for those of you that are starting your own things or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

You get mixed up.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

And the risk of hiring young, smart entrepreneurs to work for you is because they will go off and do their own thing at some time, right? I mean, that's what I did. I had several people who worked for me go out and start their own thing. I'm very proud of them. Um, but I made sure I did it the right way. I didn't take anything, I didn't in, I didn't um I made sure everything was organic to what we were doing. I did not uh solicit employees, I did not solicit referral sources, I just went and let the rumor mill kind of go that I was out there, and then my phone was ringing. And once your phone rings, it's on like Donkey Kong. So I had gone out and I had privately fundraised to fund the entire hospice. And uh we were off and running. And I had my marching orders to get to a certain census to make sure we could break even and then actually create revenue so we didn't have to fundraise anymore, and by large, we did it.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Do you think you had to get any like outside help at all with all of the funding and all of the like building the company itself because you didn't have any experience there?

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Completely. Well, this is what's so crazy right now. So when I go in and I do consultations for all sorts, and I love starting up companies. Yeah, I never even formally managed somebody before I own my own company. And then next thing I know, I turn around, I've got 50 employees, I've got a hundred employees, I got a thousand employees, right? And so my daddy always said, you don't have to know everything, you have to know the people that do. So the success of our business was that we built the very best team and allowed ourselves to stay in our swim lanes. So I would have never gotten anywhere by thinking I knew hospice better than anybody, because I didn't. Um, but I found a great executive director, great billing, great legal and compliance, uh, great clinical. And we were very fortunate because we actually had a wonderful team. And a lot of people either failed to have great partners, which I did, or failed to get those good team members who are all in, and we did. So it was just a recipe for success.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Just a lot about the people who support you instead of just building it all yourself. Yeah. What

Palliative Care And The PE Sale

SPEAKER_01 11:26

kind of made you decide to sell the company into private equity after growing it for 20 years?

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah, I never intended to sell it when I started it. I named it after my one and only daughter, um, Sage. And so when I started that company, I thought this is what I'm gonna do forever, and perhaps Sage would take it over one day. I mean, Sage had been in nursing homes and hospitals with me since she was five years old.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Did she involve herself in there? In the business after? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Oh, well, well, from that perspective, of like her and her friends would go volunteer, they would go out and sing at the assisted living homes, she would write letters, she would visit with me. She even came with me a time or two to coach grandchildren through their dying grandfather and made last visits with children. She was incredible. Yeah. But she told me in fifth grade that she wanted to move to New York and she wanted to be a lawyer, and she just set off on that plan.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

She did it.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

So I knew that that's what she was gonna do. So what happened was after starting this business and it becoming so successful, which was not the plan was not to have the biggest hospice. Yeah. The plan was to have the best. And because we were the best, we got to be the biggest. That's what people forget. Like, you just do the right thing, you do what you say you're gonna do, and that's where success goes. Success is a byproduct of that. Okay, if you focus on just the growth, you're gonna come up hollow at certain points, and you're plugging holes. So we grew to have this great success. But the other thing that we did is we opened the very first palliative care, home-based palliative care in the entire country.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Can you explain what that means?

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah, a lot of people still don't know, but this was 2015. Okay. Take you back in time. Palliative care was this big buzzword, particularly in hospital, hospice, nursing home community.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

And what it meant was quality of life, pain management, symptom management. So what happens was when you go on to hospice, there's certain criteria that you have to meet. Hospice is very specific.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

And so you have to have a terminal diagnosis with a life-limiting illness of a prognosis of six months or less. You have to follow within the LCD diagnosis codes, you have to show all these factors within that. So there was a lot of people that, if you're doing it right, if you're running a hospice company right, don't quite qualify for hospice, but they're sick and they need help. So everybody kept talking about palliative care. And this hospital was gonna have a palliative care, and this hospice was gonna have a palliative care. But when I called around to see what they were doing, it was basically a marketer, which is a salesperson or a social worker calling the patient every so often, just checking in on seeing how they were doing or seeing if they were hospice ready. That doesn't help anybody. And so we went to Medicare, we went to the state of Arizona and we said, hey, we want to open a real provider-based palliative care company. How do we do it? And they said, gee, I don't know. Nobody's ever really done it. So we absolutely just winged it. And we hired providers. So by that I mean nurse practitioners, physicians, and PAs, physician assistants, that would make home visits wherever the patient was. They would order medications, they would order labs, they would order um x-rays, they would order them home health, all of these things, but we were seeing them in the home to give them extra support.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

When they were chronically ill but didn't quite qualify for hospice. So from when they eventually did qualify, they would be ready. When they eventually did qualify, most of the time they would transfer to our hospice, right? Yeah. But the reason nobody ever did that is because we lost $625,000 on the palliative care company before we even had our first break-even month. So because it wasn't even regulated, it wasn't even a thing, it still to this day, 10 years later, doesn't have its own licensing um accreditation. It still is an unclassified healthcare. Um, people wouldn't pay, so insurance wouldn't pay. We would bill, sometimes we'd get $7, sometimes we'd get nothing, sometimes we did 42. But my wonderful partners that I referenced earlier were good Catholic men. And I said, you guys, this is our tithe. These people deserve it. And they said, absolutely. So that really put us on the map. So between not only having this successful hospice, but being the first provider in the country to do that. So I started getting phone calls from strategic big hospices that wanted to buy us, partner with us, private equity that wanted to buy us, partner with us. I didn't prepare for that. I didn't know how to do that. So I went to my dear, dear friend, who's my wealth manager, yeah, um, Justin Brees, and said, I'm getting these calls. And he said, You should not be having these calls. These guys are sharks. So he put me in touch with an investment banker. And that's how we ended up actually going to market and selling to the PE firm. So it was not intended, it just happened organically.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Did you still play a big role in management after you sold the company and started having multiple branches too? Or was it more you took a step back?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yes and no. Um, so when when I sold to this company, we were gonna be their platform. So that means we were the first hospice that they had ever bought. And the goal of that was to take our hospice, Sage, and build the Sage family, hospice family of companies. Yeah. So to go out and acquire other great hospices across several states and roll them up under umbrellas. And I was like, yes, that sounds good. I'll do that one. Um, unfortunately, not long after the purchase, within six months, the CEO of that company had passed away unexpectedly. Um, we had some shifting going on. Yeah, and the trajectory kind of changed. So about nine months after I sold, I took a step back. Uh, I resigned for a while. Uh, I stayed on the board. Um, and I resigned for a while, and I went into actually healthcare tech. And that was really fun. And I got to build some other cool things, but I always had my finger on the pulse. Sage was my baby. Uh, during that time, we had acquired two other companies.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Because didn't it eventually go to four?

SPEAKER_00 17:27

We're across four states. We were across four states. So multiple companies across four states.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

So in 2020, yeah, yeah. Now it actually just sold to another private equity. So which makes sense because private equity sells about every five to seven years. So in 2020, they called me back to help integrate with all the companies, and then I stayed there until my last retirement. And then we just sold. Wait, you sold? They sold again. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's what happened.

Matchmaking With Psychology Not Checklists

SPEAKER_01 17:56

So and then after you sold all of this, you decided to go into matchmaking with your cousin.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

I got voluntold I was going into matchmaking. No, I loved it. It was so much fun. So my brilliant, brilliant cousin, who is a licensed clinical psychotherapist who'd worked in um addiction and behavior therapy for many years, as well as marriage and family counseling, had recently retired after I did. And like every day we're hanging out, we're babysitting her grandkids, we're getting our nails done, and she's like, I need, I need a purpose, man. And I was like, Yeah, me too. And she said, I've always wanted to do real clinical matchmaking.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah. What's different about clinical matchmaking and just other forms of matchmaking?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Such a good question. So I believe that there's a lot of great matchmakers out there. But to add the clinical perspective, when you're actually looking at somebody's human psychology, their true attachment styles, their the core models, the roles of what matters to them, and to be able to see how that works together is very different than they want to live here, they like pickleball, uh, they like slender, they like blondes. Yeah. That stuff matters to a degree, right? But to go from a clinical perspective really intrigued me. And remember when I said earlier, I love disrupting industries? Yeah. That was my hook. I was like, ooh, yeah, we're gonna do this differently. So I said, if you can match people based off of their core values, their principles, the big five model, I will help you build that business. And that's exactly what we did. So we started from absolutely nothing and started uh this matchmaking company, which is absolutely incredible. Yeah. Um, I transitioned out of it a year ago, gave all, sold all my shares back to Marnie. That's her name. She took it and was running, and has recently started a new collaborative with another partner who was already a matchmaker here, and they are absolutely crushing it. So it pleases me so much to see that we built something that has total legs, and she's loving it. She's absolutely loving it.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Is there anything you guys look for in your clients? Well, obviously, but is there anything specific that you think really makes a good client?

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah. Somebody who's truly ready and has emotional stability. Now, that doesn't mean that everybody's got their their things, right? Their quirks, their their whatnot. Yeah. But to be self-aware is is good enough, even if you have quirks. Like they have to be open to change. Yeah, absolutely. You have to be open to feedback, you have to be open that we're not gonna find you the perfect partner. I mean, Marnie still tells me stories. It's my favorite calls I get from her. She's like, you're not gonna believe this delusional dude that came in the other day. I mean, you'll have somebody who comes in who's, you know, it's like, okay, I'm 67, I only want to date 40-year-olds, they need to be in this kind of shape, they need to do this, they can't have kids, they can't do this. And it's like, dude, who wanted to do like this big prize? Yeah. You think you can just go in and order somebody off a shelf? Like, no, that's we are humans. Yeah. And so somebody who's self-aware, who's authentic, and is truly ready to actually find love and not just date around is a great client for her.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Who do you think is someone that comes to you guys looking for a new partner? Is it someone who's tried and failed so many times that they're just like, I need help?

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah. So here's the thing it's not like our clients can't get dates. Yeah. They can get dates, um, but they're not getting the right dates. So that's where Marnie's other expertise superiorly comes in, is she is consistently coaching these clients about why their dating patterns haven't worked. What they're looking for in a partner. Are they attracted to the wrong things? Let's change what you're attracted to. So she's not only out there looking for matches at work, but she's actually coaching her clients. We cannot say therapy. Because she's not acting in the capacity of a therapist anymore, even though she still has her therapist brain. But she's coaching them through that. So it's really about changing the dynamic of what you look for.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Coach someone away from what they're attracted to. So is it like if someone's looking for the wrong things, like they're looking for someone young and good looking instead of someone who's gonna like support? Like, how do you coach someone away from what they want? Yeah. Is it like you have to lower your standards? It's not realistic.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Well, here's the thing: not necessarily lower your standards, but change them. Yeah. So on paper, right? If you did a paper-to-paper analysis and everybody has their list, right? Like deal breakers, must-haves, wants, do not wants. Well, there's a lot of things that people put as deal breakers that shouldn't be dealing with. So are you gonna give somebody up for a deal breaker? I I said when I was single again at 45 that I absolutely wouldn't date somebody with small children. Well, here I am almost four years later, met the most amazing man who had a seven-year-old. Can you imagine? I can't imagine how different my life would be without him because it was the best choice I made. Um, and so it's it's things like that. Or thinking that I had to date somebody, right? This is somebody else who had the kind of money that I did. Yeah. I wasn't raised with money. I earned my own. Then I became successful. Well, on paper, they would say, well, you know, you can only you should date another CEO. Yeah. You should date another person who's only done businesses. Why? Because what's more important to me is that now I date somebody who's kind, who's patient, who's funny. Those are not things that if you would have asked me before my brilliant cousin Marnie got in my head, those would not be the things that it would be first on my list. So I would have said, you know, super smart, super successful. And most people would have agreed. Yeah. But that's not what was gonna stand the test of time.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

I do feel like sometimes when people say they want something, someone like smart, successful, it's kind of just like they're looking for someone with like drive and passion. Yeah.

unknown 24:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

But those are kind of different things.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Those are. Now, success is often a result of the attribute of being driven and ambitious and a self-starter. But not always. I mean, I wouldn't want somebody who's like doing all those things but has multiple failures because they have narcissistic tendencies and they don't listen to anybody.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Right? So you could put somebody in that category, but they're an asshole. So I mean, no, no, thank you. Um, and so the other thing is smart is so subjective. Um, my current boyfriend, brilliant beyond belief. One of the first things he said to me is, I can't spell. And I was like, this is not gonna go anywhere. I mean, are you kidding me? But that man can look at anything and fix it from a car to a house to a plane. And I'm not kidding you on that. That to me is so attractive and so brilliant. I mean, I don't care how stupid something is or how he'll he'll build a whole house. That's what he does. Yeah. Um, he can fix anything. That to me is smart.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah. So you just have to look at things from a new perspective.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

He doesn't have to do the books or the legal stuff. So I'll start his LLCs, I'll do get his EIN numbers, I'll build his, you know, org charts out and operationalize things, but I could never do what he does. And so smart is subjective.

Hospice Perspective On What Matters

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Do you think like caring for people at the end of their lives caused a shift in how you think people should really be like looking for their life partners and looking for the people who they should choose to love?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah, that's one of my favorite all-time questions forever and ever and ever. I think going into hospice, and I went into hospice months after my mom had died, and my dad had already died, and I was young, I was in my 20s. And I think going into hospice at that age, I was a single mom. I had just gone through a cancer diagnosis. Both my parents had passed. Um, and I had friends that were in similar boats or whatnot. Yeah. And I just learned really quick not to sweat the small stuff.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Like it is such a different perspective when you know, my friend would call me and be, oh my gosh, you should have seen the line at the bank today. And I'm like, man, I just sat with a 36-year-old with pancreatic cancer while her kids are saying goodbye to her. Like, yeah, screw your bank line. And so it absolutely changed my perspective for the future a little bit too much. I think I might have gotten a little bit too hard and maybe a little desensitized to some things. But for what I wanted in relationships in the future, it makes all the difference. It makes all the difference in what actually matters now, and especially as we age towards end of life, what really mattered.

Women Leading In Male-Dominated Spaces

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Do you think there were any challenges you faced in either business? Because I mean, I feel like definitely at that time, healthcare was way more of a male-dominated field. I think it's switching a lot. I think it's becoming way more female dominated nowadays. But do you think that back then when you first started the business, it was you were kind of in a space where you didn't know what to do because it was just so like isolating?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

I think one of the greatest things in the world is that I had two partners who were extremely educated, male, who completely believed in me. Yeah. I had grown up with two older brothers who for some reason always believed in me, even though I was just all over the place. And so I'm gonna say something, just kind of like my advanced degree comment that's a little bit controversial. Yeah, it was a big deal to be a woman in some of those environments, but let me tell you something. Women should learn how to play that. And I did, and I'll give you some examples. So um I remember back in the day uh when we started getting a little bit bigger at Sage, and I was now making like contracts with multi-facility locations and whatnot. I would always bring my VP of operations, amazing man Ben. And we would be sitting in meetings with the five principals or owners or administrators or whatever it is of these facilities. Yeah. And they would direct their questions at Ben. And I'm the owner of the I'm I'm Ben's, I'm I'm the boss, man. And Ben, like the first time he got so uncomfortable. And I was like, just answer the questions. I don't care who the answer is. I want to walk out of here with the contract.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

So I didn't allow my ego to get in the way that I was like, yeah, answer the questions. I literally don't care. Yeah, it's absolutely fine. So that's one example, and that happened a lot. If it ever happened, when my partner Jerry was in the room, because we were in other companies together, not only the hospice, but the healthcare tech and whatever, he would redirect, he'd be like, What are you asking me? Ask her. You know, that was always kind of fun. Yeah. But he was really he was a huge advocate for me. But the other piece of it is when I would get in these rooms and and very intimidating, 12 men, again, mostly highly educated or whatnot, and we would go to like conferences and again meet my colleagues and other firms and other big hospice owners. And it was kind of a puff, puff, puff contest. What I learned is as a woman, I could get away with doing things and asking questions that men won't do simply because of ego. Yeah. So I'd be like, hey, I I've heard what you've done here. I've struggled a little bit with it. Will you tell me? And they'd be like, Well, sure. I mean, you, yeah, you, you sweet young woman. No problem. I can tell you all my secrets because I don't know if you'll do anything with it or not, or whatnot. So I just learned to work it. And then there were times where I was like, that's fine. I can put my male colleague, my male um partner forward if I need to. Yeah. Because I really don't care. I want the contract. I want the next one. I that's what I want. So it's it is very different today. It really is so much different than when I started in this industry well over 20 years ago. Um, but it's okay to have those, those differing uh gender roles. And what I've seen and what I had to do with myself is that a lot of female women CEOs very much harden themselves. And you have to to a degree.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

A little bit.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

But try to make sure it doesn't trickle over into your personal life.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

So really try to understand the dichotomy of when you need to be that CEO boss babe, and when you go back into your feminine energy and be able to take that. And you can use your feminine energy in work as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

I feel like you can draw on like the expectation that you're empathetic and kind of, especially in the healthcare field.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Well, we're we're understanding, yeah. Traditionally, better listeners, all of those kind of things. So I would say that that's one of the things is don't feel like as a woman going into a male-dominated environment that you need to conform to what the male constituents look like there. Be your own unique self. Be your own unique self in it. And again, there's a lot of there's a lot more respect for that. And you know what? A lot of these men now have successful wives, daughters they're putting through school. It's a very different time than it used to be where we were moving from traditional things. And so, you know, would you want somebody talking to your wife that way? I don't know. So, yeah, don't don't be afraid to be yourself there.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's great advice.

Entrepreneur Focus And Culture First

SPEAKER_01 31:42

What do you do you have any advice for any young people out there trying to start their own companies or businesses?

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yes. So, first of all, if you want to start a company or a business because you think you should, that's okay. Yeah. That's a great starting point. That's not enough. There's a lot of people that I see that kind of throw some spaghetti against the wall and they do a lot of things okay and nothing great. If you know what you want to do, get laser focused on it and see it through.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Throw yourself into it.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Throw yourself into it and see it through. Now, it doesn't mean that you don't have other things going on in your life, potentially other little business things. But you are never, if you have 24 hours in your day and seven days in your week, and 28 to 31 days in your month, you have got to be conscious of where you spend your time. So if you just want to do it because it's the cool thing to do, it's not gonna be enough. Like really figure out, yeah. Yeah, you have to be passionate one way or another. My dear friend Tyler told me one time that he he gives, um, I loved this. I love this. You know what I'm gonna say, right? That you know, that people give advice. I'm gonna quote Tyler again because I want him to get the credit for this. People say, find something that you do and then do that for business. And Tyler goes, No, find something you hate, and then that's what you do, because then you go in and fix it. So I loved that. I've used that before uh since hearing that from him and mentoring. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

And that was definitely something you mentioned earlier when you were like, I wanted to make some changes in the hospice world. What changes did you kind of want to make specifically? I forgot to ask.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

That's okay. Um, we so first of all, our team was so unbelievably um cared for, and the culture was like none other. So you would see an email go out, something. I'm on 16th Street in Bethany home. I brought, you know, an 18-gauge catheter, I need a 21. Is anybody in the area? And within two minutes, five people had answered: a nurse, a CNA, maybe a secretary that goes that way. Like everybody just helped. And I think this is where a lot of organizations go wrong. Their heads are pointed the wrong way. So you're worried about what your boss thinks, he's worried about what his boss thinks, she's worried about what her boss thinks. And at the end of the day, it's all to the owners and the shareholders. Wrong way to point your head. If everybody's head is pointed down towards that patient, yeah, and everybody in that organization, I don't care if they never sit in front of a patient, is thinking about that patient, that's when things get right. And we were known for that. I mean, you just you didn't find better care. Um, you didn't find a better culture. I don't ever remember running an ad for employees, and we grew tremendously. I had a bench of people wanting to work there. It was awesome. It was absolutely awesome. We didn't pay, we paid right in the middle. There were plenty of places that played higher, some that paid lower. Because here's the thing is if I'm gonna give you get you for a nickel more down the street, you're gonna find somebody else for 10 cents more down the street. Yeah. It's not the way to keep an employee.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

No.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Um, and so it was the culture and it was the culture, and it trickled to the patients, the referral sources, the facilities, the doctors, just they would just say, anytime I meet somebody from Sage, there's just a look in their eye.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yeah, it's amazing.

Speed Round And Closing

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Yeah. So on my show, I do have a little section where I just like speed run a ton of questions and you answer them off as quickly as you can. They're pretty easy. Oh yeah. Okay. First question coffee or tea? Coffee. Coffee, okay. Um, morning person or night owl? Morning. One word that describes you at 17. Fun.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Still describes me.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Oh one word that describes you now. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Authentic.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

I agree. Um, best business book you've ever read, if you've read any. Um, or business advice you've heard.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

I don't, I don't, this is crazy. I read all the time. I don't read a lot of business books. I don't know why. I I don't very much more. But my favorite one I ever read was Um Eat the Frog. It's a short little quick read. I've given it to so many people, and it basically says, I don't even know if it's a business book or more of a life book, but it basically says if you know that sometime during that day you have to eat a live bullfrog, why not just get it away first thing in the morning? Because it's gonna be the toughest thing you do all day, and then the rest of your day is easy. So I always subscribe to eat that frog, and I used to talk about that all the time in my team meetings or whatnot. Like, do the thing that you don't want to do so that you can get to all the stuff you love.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

I love it. Okay. Um, toughest room you've ever walked into.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Boof. Uh, okay. My daughter and their friends, they're tough, man. Like, like when I would come home and she was in high school and she was there with like all of her cool theater friends, and there's 12 of them hanging out on the couch, and I'm like, yeah, cool mom's home, and they had no use for me. They were a tough room. They were a tough room.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Best first date idea in Arizona.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Ooh. I think if the weather is cooler, I just think we have so many gorgeous uh landscapes and things to do around here. So if you like a four by four, maybe a four by four with a little picket, you picnic, you like horseback riding, a little horse ride, um, with a you know, picnic, some sodas, wine, whatever you can do. Um, I just like outdoor.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Off topic. What type of dates do you send people on for the matchmaking?

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Oh, the matchmaking all sorts. We had we had first dates that were like meeting in Vegas and spending the weekend together. We had that kind of stuff. Um, Marnie really likes to do on the first one a coffee date. That's cute. Because number one, no alcohol's involved. And that's imp you don't want your attraction level to be a little bit clouded. Yeah. Um, and then you know, you can always make another date from there. But I think three of the marriages that we had were off of a coffee date. I'm not even kidding you. Or if they did prefer to go out in the evening, they would do a happy hour, and then she would always make dinner reservations, but never tell the non-client that there were dinner reservations. That way the client would go to happy hour, and then if they wanted to continue the date, they would say, Oh, by the way, I was able to get us in, but if they didn't want to continue the date, just nope, reservation's gone.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Okay. Um, biggest dating profile red flag.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Oh, it's it's gotta be the physicality when it's focused on physicality and age. Yeah. Like it's I imagine it's all just vanity. And I get it. And I get it. Like you need to be attracted to your partner. I I don't mind that, but when it leads with that, like it's not gonna be good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Um, a green flag that you think people always overlook.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Mmm. General kindness. So there's a difference between kindness and love bombing. Yeah. Love bombing is not okay, but general kindness, people just don't trust it anymore. No, they always think that there's something. I did. That's one of the reasons I almost didn't date my boyfriend, except for Marty was like, he's just being kind. And I'm like, no, he's kind of a he's kind of wimpy, he's a little sensitive, or you know, maybe that's love bombing or whatnot. And she's like, he's just kind. Yeah, we're so I think kindness, general kindness.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

I think people try to find some hidden meaning in everything. Yeah. Like some hidden trick, because there's a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

There is a lot of that. So be be careful, keep your guard up, but but also be be open be smart. I don't want to say keep your guard up. Be smart, keep your eyes open, but also just be open.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Text back right away or after a couple of days.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Right away.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah, don't play.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

And if you could tell 17-year-old yourself one sentence, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 39:53

You're gonna have a hell of a ride.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Okay. Wait, I feel like that applies to a lot of people. Yeah. So, Tiana Zhang, thank you for coming. Um, is there anything you want to say to the audience? Um, anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Uh, I would say that if you have any interest in being an entrepreneur, pursuing your dreams, um, there's nothing that's gonna stop you but you. So just go for it. In case anyone wants a matchmaker? Ooh, yeah. If you're looking for a matchmaker, um, matchmaking collective here in Scottsdale, Arizona, uh, with Marnie Zang Catalura um and her partner Karen. They're doing a fantastic job. So definitely if you're interested in matchmaking.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

You heard it. Okay. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Thank you.